Kingdom Knights: Fight the Scandal

1 Peter 3:15-16: "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander." (NIV)

Thursday, March 02, 2006

A discussion of Contemporary Christian Music

A discussion of Contemporary Christian Music: hosted by Jonathan L. McCarthy

Note: This material may be used in a future issue of a newsletter for which I write. By posting, you give me rights to use or exclude your comments in the publication.

posted by Jonathan M @ 4:03 PM  

52 Comments:

  • At 4:05 PM, March 02, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    Let's start off with this question: In your opinion, what does the Bible have to say about Christian music?

     

  • At 5:25 PM, March 02, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    Well, tecnically, the Bible really doesn't have much to say about the "Christian Music Industry". It does, however, have much to say about worship .

    Personally, I think that the so-called industry is kind of dry, and oftentimes (note I didn't say all the time) is shallow and doesn't focus on the Gospel or on anything really spiritually meaty.

    I'll formulate a more in-depth response eventually...

    Chris

     

  • At 12:14 AM, March 04, 2006, Blogger Soldier of ONE said…

    I am very interested to hear what you have to say about this. There are usually a couple different camps, ranging from the conservative A.T.I.A. types who shun anything with a beat to the Christian heavy metal types. I have my own opinion, but I'll wait to see what others are expressed before I share mine. ;)

     

  • At 6:58 AM, March 04, 2006, Anonymous Simon Templar said…

    I would start by saying that I believe music is inherintly powerful. It affects people physiologically, psychologically, and spiritually.

    Now, that is not necessarily the same thing as saying music is inherintly moral, or immoral. A gun is inherintly powerful.. but not inherintly moral. The same gun can be used for good or for evil.

    Can the same thing be said of music?

    My personal opinion is that there is some music which produces no good and therefore I'm willing to call it inherintly bad. I do think, however, that most types of music can be used for good effect, and for evil effect.

    I think the power of music is clearly visible in the bible. Music is present in much of the ceremony and ritual God perscribes in the OT, David drove demons away by playing on his harp.

    One thing I think the bible has to say about all "christian arts" is that to a christian, all arts are christian. What I mean by that is the bible teaches us to do everything as unto the Lord. To see that we serve and glorify God in everything we do. A part of that is recognizing that even in the mundane every day tasks we do, God is present. How much more so in our art when we pour our hearts into it.
    So a peice of instamental music, made by a christian, is as much "christian music" as a song about Jesus.

     

  • At 7:42 AM, March 04, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    Simon Templar,

    I definitely agree with you that music is powerful (and not inherantly good or evil). I know this is a discussion about Christian music, so I don't really want to get into "secular" music, but do you think music not made by Christians can be glorifying to God (or, more specifially, that Christians can glorify God through secular music? Obviously, there are some songs with terrible lyrics so that it is basically impossible to glorify God through that music (like music about immorality, or a song laced with profanity). But is it possible for a Christian to glorify God more through a moral secular that is better musically than a often shallow Christian punk song (not to bash punk music neccessarily, or anyone who listens to it, but in my experience with that genre of music usually the lyrics don't teach me anything more about God than other secular bands).

    Chris

     

  • At 10:18 AM, March 04, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    Wow, this discussion took off before I even got here! :D

    I will agree with Chris that the industry itself has lost some of that vitality that it had when it first emerged. I will, however, disagree with him and Simon that music has no inherent moral value. I take an originistic point of view and say that all the arts - music included - have their origin in God and are therefore inherently good. What about bad music? It's the lyrics that determine whether it should be listened to. But the music behind the lyrics is inherently good, regardless. Philosophically different, certainly.

    However, I do believe that there is no Scriptural basis for denying Christian Contemporary Music. After all, the Scriptures say, "Sing to the LORD a new song." No offense to anyone, but Rock of Ages is by no means new. Does that mean we shouldn't sing them? No...not at all. I think that a good balance of contemporary and hymnic music is good for a healthy church. The contemporary music often has the zeal and passion that is often lacking with hymn-only churches (at least, those that I have had the opportunity to see and hear about from others). The hymns are often spiritually deep and grounded, and offer a treasure trove of spiritual food for the singer. That cannot be denied.

    Now, in terms of the Contemporary Christian movement, I would say there are a good many sold-out, rock-solid bands and artists - ranging in style - that are worthy of listening to, especially when they are truly worshipping God with what they do (i.e., Third Day, Casting Crowns, etc.).

    Bands that are allegedly Christian but do not make clear statements about God, I don't think should be associated with that movement, but rather perceived as secular. That doesn't make them bad, just that they don't really fit the criteria.

    Back on topic, the Bible speaks of singing, praise, and worship quite often - most especially in the psalms. Psalm 150 is a great example.

    It also comes into the New Testament as well. The many doxologies and hymns that appear ("Wake Up, O Sleeper" for instance) in part demonstrate how committed the early church was to Communing with God through worship.

    In Colossians 3:16, Paul writes, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God." He says similarly in Ephesians 5:18-21: "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ."

    There are key points to be noted in those verses: adide in the Word, fellowship together, be Spirit-filled, and ALWAYS BE THANKFUL TO GOD. That is the heart of worship. From that, any Christian music (as Simon defines it) with that heart should not be rejected.

     

  • At 2:16 PM, March 04, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    Ah! What was I saying?? wow...I actually did not mean that music has no inherant moral value...David I definitely agree with you that music is good (I have no idea why I wrote that earlier...music is created by God, and, in its pure form, is good (like all things in creation). However, music, like everything humans get their hands on, is often perverted by us into something sinful (with evil lyrics that glorifies sin and not our Creator).

    OK, with that ammendment to what I had said, I will move on.

    I personally don't enjoy Casting Crowns because I find their music and melodies very repetitive (for both CDs-which I've listened to so that I could get an informed opinion about their music). Is this singing a new song to God? Maybe, but I find that I can better glorify God with even moral secular music (e.g. not glorifying sin in lyrics and without profanity) than I can with repetitive, seemingly uncreative bands that use Christian lyrics (although from what I've heard of Casting Crowns their lyrics do speak of the gospel and they're not shallow in that regard). I can't really make any even somewhat objective statement about Thrid Day, because I don't enjoy the guy's voice...so that kind of makes it impossible for me to enjoy their music :P. One band that I know of that I consider to have good lyrics as well as good music is Jars of Clay (althoug I haven't followed them for that long, the band has a good sound in the beginning, and their latest album is a set of hymns re-done with more modern music is quite good from what I've heard of it!).

    Also, there are some bands who are Christians admittedly (and say so without fear) but do not write "Chrisitan Music Industry" lyrics. A band like this is known as Eisley. They believe that they're lives, not their music, can and will bring people to Christ, and so they write "good" songs that do not neccessarily spell out the gospel, but their lyrics are not evil, not do they vilify sin.

    Another band that is admittedly Chrisitian but does not readily take part in the Christian Music culture is Switchfoot. Are they any less Christian because a person has to think had about all the meaning that is placed into their music? Just becuse they don't usually use the words "Jesus" "God" and such doesn't neccessarily mean they're not Chrisitians, or that they're not impacting people.

    Here's my sort-of comprehensive view of music:

    Ok, let me start out without talking about music directly. God created mankind; we sinned, and incurred His holy wrath. We took the world with us (now disease entered, pain, sadness, etc). However, God still gives us certain common grace (if He didn't, our societies' over history would have torn each other to pieces in a way that no one could imagine, and natural disasters would destroy what's left). Thus, it is God's common grace to each of us (including those who have not accepted Jesus' payment for their sins) that He allows us to keep living and that any person can do "good works" (i.e. the kindnesses that fellow humans--even unsaved--give each other). God also allowed talents for all of humankind (e.g. people building architectural wonders, inventing new things, writing well, using the Arts). Music is included in this list. These gifts somehow (even coming from those who spurn God's special grace) glorify God--even when used for personal fame and fortune. Thus, even if I listen to secular music, my soul can still glorify God and extol His greatness, the only problem comes in with 2 things: the lyrics and my heart. 1) Lyrics do not necessarily glorify God--glorifying sin is one example of un-glorifying lyrics. When I hear these words, I CANNOT glorify God because sin is being exemplified. Thus, this music is not good for my soul. 2) My heart: if I’m centering too much of my attention on music (even "good" music) and focusing on it and not God, then I have an idol in my life that needs to go. So, even if the music is fine, I'M not fine (because it's not drawing me closer to God).

    Whoops...I guess none of this has really addressed Jonathan's question about the Bible talking about Christian music..

    Christian Nolan

     

  • At 2:18 PM, March 04, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    wait....I did not mean "vilify sin" I meant "glorify sin"

    ...wrong adjective! I also meant "nor" instead of "not"

    Wow that's two for typos/mis-sayings by me!

    Chris

     

  • At 10:08 PM, March 05, 2006, Blogger Soldier of ONE said…

    Alright, here's my 2 cents worth.

    There are two primary polar opposites when it comes to the music debate. There are those that think anything with a beat is borderline sinful and there are those who listen to anything and everything. Most everyone else falls between those two extremes.

    I am inclined to think that all music (if you took away the lyrics) is neutral. Lyrics are what truly defines the song. You could have a gentle piano ballad that has lyrics glorifying immorality and it would be just as evil as a hard rock song with the same lyrics. However, what happens when you take the words away?

    There is no denying that different styles of music will make you feel differently. Smashing electric guitars will make you feel differently than a piano arpeggio. The first will energize you, the second will soothe you. My question is this: Can feelings be wrong in and of themselves?

    My answer is no. God created us to be emotional people. He gave us these emotions; He meant for us to feel them. I believe it is not wrong for us to feel anything. However, a line must be drawn between feeling an emotion and acting on that emotion. For example, if you listen to hard rock all the time and you're a habitually angry person, you may want to change your listening habits.

    A second factor that comes into play is setting. Since different music will make you feel different things, some music is appropriate for settings that other music is not. For example, I would not play P.O.D. (a hard rock band) at a wedding or a church service. Similarly, I would not listen to Mozart while I worked out at the gymn.

    Lastly, lyrics really do matter, as does the faith (or lack of it) of the artist. There are a couple exceptions, but I generally will not listen to artists who do not profess to be Christians. Artists like Switchfoot who do profess but don't really show it don't bother me too much, but I really like bands who not only profess, but act their faith.

    In conclusion, I feel all music (w/o lyrics) is neutral, but each style has its own place.

    However, the best option for anyone is to thoroughly research a band before you buy their CD!! :)

     

  • At 10:26 AM, March 06, 2006, Anonymous Chris M said…

    Soldier of One,

    Can you back up your claim that music is neutral with Scripture?

    God created music. Therefore, as being a thing He created, it is not neutral, but glorifying to God (which in my book counts as "good")

    Christian Nolan

     

  • At 1:51 PM, March 06, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    I'd like to throw a few remarks in here. Some of you have made similar comments to Soldier of One's, "I feel all music (w/o lyrics) is neutral". David built the foundation for this with his statement, " I take an originistic point of view and say that all the arts - music included - have their origin in God and are therefore inherently good."

    I couldn't disagree more! If I understand correctly, this is your train of logic:

    A: God created all things good.
    B: Therefore, one cannot discriminate against a particular style of music - only the lyrics.

    The problem is this: You are assuming that the lyrics CAN be perverted but the music CANNOT. How do you prove that an art form remains uncorrupted while the words attached don't? In essence you are saying that evil is perpetrated via words while music remains pure.

    I believe that music is just as capable of conveying evil as words are. Certain music (w/out words) makes me feel immoral. I don't need the words to aid my feelings.

    So my basic challenge is: Why do you believe that the words can be perverted, but the music cannot?

    Just for the record - I'm not against music with a beat. :-)

     

  • At 6:52 PM, March 06, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    Jonathan,

    Yes, the music may make you feel immoral, but does that make the music evil for others?

    For example, in Corinthians where Paul addresses food for idols, and explains that the thing is not wrong in and of itself, but that if a person feels wrong using it, then someone who doesn't feel bad using it shouldn't eat it during when in their prescence.

    So, Jonathan, in essence, your argument only proves that your musical taste makes you feel immoral for certain beats, while someone else may be completely different in that regard. Can you prove that the music actually is evil in and of itself, or that it's just your response to the music.

    If it's just your response, then it may be your response that needs changing, not the music.

    Note: Jonathan, I'm not critisizing you, just questioning your argument...

    Christian Nolan

     

  • At 7:30 PM, March 06, 2006, Anonymous Simon Templar said…

    I agree with Jonathan on this one. I do agree with the originistic view as stated by David, and I see Jonathan's point as a caveat to david's point.

    All arts are inherintly good, because they are an expression of our desire to be like God who is the ultimate artist. However, everything in a fallen world can be perverted, including music.

    This does not guarentee that an unbeliever will automaticly produce bad music. Just that it is possible for music itself (minus lyrics) to be perverted.

     

  • At 9:24 PM, March 06, 2006, Blogger Soldier of ONE said…

    Jonathan brings up a good point. All things that God created were good at first, but after sin, a lot of His creation was perverted. Music could possibly be one of those.

    However, I agree with Chris on this point: What is wrong for one person may not be wrong for another. Just like in Paul's example with the meat offered to idols, one style of music may make one person uncomfortable while another style may not. My friend likes heavy metal/screamo. I personally can't stand it because it makes me very uncomfortable. I like a wide variety of music, but my favorites tend to hover in the rock range. I like bands such as Falling Up, Kutless, Casting Crowns, Thousand Foot Krutch, and Switchfoot. Some of these bands make my other friend uncomfortable, so I don't listen to them around him.

    To quote my elder (in my church), I think it's a "liberty garden" issue.

     

  • At 6:33 AM, March 07, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    I tend to agree with you, Jonathan, about how music itself can be wrong for certain people (I would be sure to put the "for certain people" phrase in there though...because otherwise it would be easy to fall into legalism). Also the lyrics can be evil as well.

    So it basically boils down to the lyrics and the heart of the person listening.

    Collossians 3:17: "And Whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him."

    Music, obviously, falls under this command. So each of us should work out what music is "good" for us to listen to, what is evil, and also set a standard of exclusion for lyrics that are evil.

    The point isn't "How much 'bad' music/lyrics can I listen to before I'm sinning," it's "How can I better serve God through the music that I allow to enter my ears."

    Maybe that doesn't even mean you can't listen to certain music, just not as much as you might want to (not evil lyrics)--like secular bands, and focusing more on worship and Christian artists who proudly proclaim God's truth.

    Christian Nolan

     

  • At 8:25 AM, March 07, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    I only said that certain music makes me feel immoral to demonstrate that more than the lyrics can be perverted. I perfectly understand that others may not feel this way, and that's where Christian liberty may come in. But again, I wasn't trying to say, 'because this makes me this way, it must make you that way, so you can't listen to it either.' I want to be very careful about adding anything to scripture that isn't in there.

     

  • At 4:16 PM, March 07, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    On pondering my last two posts, I realize that they may seem to be in contradiction to each other. The first states that music can be evil; the second seems to state that what may be evil for me won't be for you - implying that the music itself isn't evil. Here is what I want to say: Music can be inherently evil, however, because this may be more difficult to discern than corrupt lyrics, each person must decide for himself with the Spirit's leading. There will be disagreements, yes, but we must agree to disagree and live in harmony - respecting each other's convictions. Because of the huge amount of opinions, Christian liberty etc., we need to be careful about saying others are 'sinning'. We need to do what we believe God is telling us to do, and let others do the same on the gray issues like this.

     

  • At 12:37 AM, March 08, 2006, Blogger Soldier of ONE said…

    I agree. My church calls it a "liberty garden" issue, one of those issues that the Bible doesn't teach clearly on. We are free in those areas to decide how best to bring forth fruit for God. Notice the emphasis is on bearing fruit, not "how much can I get away with?"

     

  • At 7:38 AM, March 08, 2006, Blogger Isaac Boskovic said…

    Great civil discussion here guys! I've discussed this with some people before and many times they are extremely touchy and end up being offended by any probing of the issue.

    I'm an amateur pianist, and I also work in the music industry so I've had good opportunities to observe music and its effect upon people.

    The difficulties of the issue as I have seen it are these:
    A. Music is really a spiritual art.
    B. Its effect is largely subconscious.
    C. It is to be spiritually discerned. There are so many gray areas that rules and arguments run out.

    But there are principles by which we can understand music and be able to discern it.

    Music is an element that affects your mind in a subconscious way, and whatever the spirit and attitude of the music is, it will find its way sooner or later into one's life. It does matter therefore, what kind of music one listens to.

    Music has apparent qualities that are easily sensed, such as happy music, sad music, serious music, and actually jocular music.

    Then there are 'inapparent' areas which many people deny the existence of. Those include actual subtle mind control. We can therefore easily understand that if certain music has the capability of affecting us positively, certain other music can have the capability of affecting us negatively.

    And in that class, the primary offenders are the genres rock, rap, heavy metal, punk, etc. They all might be one and the same to me, as they are all repulsive and barely deserving of the title of music. Here is one example of the 'qualities' of that class of music:
    Heavy Metal began in chaos. A warped guitar chord here, a battery of drums there, and the howling cry of painful souls that had never been heard before. Alone in their private darkness, these strange notes and twisted lyrics slowly began to converge, until one day they formed a new and wholly powerful musical force. To some it was the dark and frightening chant of the devil himself. But to countless legions of heavy metal fans every where it was the ultimate explosion of thoughts, feelings, and images they could never verbalize for themselves.

    It was the ‘Sound of the Beast’ inside them all, and finally it was allowed to come out and play with demonic eyes, razor sharp claws, and a toothy smile that led the way to a headbanging revolution.”

    From ‘Sound of the Beast—the Complete Headbanging History of Heavy Metal”—a treatise on the history of Heavy Metal. Written from the rock perspective glorifying it.

    And today there are 'artists' producing that 'music' with 'Christian' words and it goes into the CCM music bin for the teens who listen to that class of music.

    You don't need to take my word for it - it affects them.

    Music and Lyrics are two different arts. When you put them together in a song, you are merging two arts.
    If you take a piece of holy, pure, glorifying-to-God music, and insert words that are the opposite, the music has not changed, it is the words that are the problem.

    The converse is also true. If I take a piece of music designed to be sensual, vulgar, and satan-worshiping, (Yes guys, its out there) and put 'good words' to it, what have I done but deceived those who don't know better?

    Bottom line: A spiritual art, in this spiritual battle, cannot be considered amoral, but must be understood in its effect, and discerned according to its spirit.

    A year or so ago I sat down and wrote a three page treatment of this subject, but I'll spare you for the present. :P

     

  • At 8:47 AM, March 08, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    Wow, Isaac, your argument is very powerful. Thanks for posting...I find myself agreeing strongly with you. I have to think about how all of this relates to the "liberty garden" thing. I think we can all agree that this discussion is certainally stretching us all!

     

  • At 9:38 PM, March 09, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    "And in that class, the primary offenders are the genres rock, rap, heavy metal, punk, etc. They all might be one and the same to me, as they are all repulsive and barely deserving of the title of music. Here is one example of the 'qualities' of that class of music: "

    Isaac,

    You make a good argument, but I think you err by lumping too many categories of music. Surely soft Rock does not fit this "Sound of the Beast" category. Also, there are many, many songs in the alt-rock genre ("The Blues" and "The Setting Sun" and even the harder-edged "Politicians" by Switchfoot are good examples of this. These songs glorify heaven, talk about how we're all sinful, and look forward to heaven. They may be mainstream rock, but there is none of the angst that you were so vehemently--and convincingly--talking against) that do not glorify sin and still glorify God, all with a different beat/musical style than you may be accustomed to. Also, if you think that Rap can't be redeemed, look up Cross Movement or an artist called Voice. Both of these use rap to glorify God immensly.

    Christian Nolan

     

  • At 12:25 AM, March 10, 2006, Blogger Soldier of ONE said…

    You don't need to take my word for it - it affects them.

    Something one of the elders in my church has said regarding "liberty garden" issues like this is that you do have liberty to choose how best to produce fruit for the Lord...but you must look at the fruits that come from your choice. If the fruits you produce are not necessarily wholesome, then you probably need to rethink your choice.

    My listening preferences range across the board, but I have listened occasionally to rap, heavy metal, rock, punk, etc. for a couple of years now and I have yet to see ill effects stemming from that choice. Like I mentioned before, "all things in moderation" is a good bet. If you see ill effects, you should probably rethink your listening preferences.

    I have no problem whatsoever with some people having conscience issues with different styles of music, but it does bother me when people say definitively that a certain style is wrong or evil. The Bible has little to say about music, and I don't recall that it ever condemns any particular style or genre.

    C. It is to be spiritually discerned. There are so many gray areas that rules and arguments run out.

    Exactly!

    ...certain other music can have the capability of affecting us negatively.

    Would you please define "affecting us negatively"?

    Looking forward to your reply...

     

  • At 12:05 PM, March 10, 2006, Blogger Isaac Boskovic said…

    "You make a good argument, but I think you err by lumping too many categories of music. Surely soft Rock does not fit this "Sound of the Beast" category. Also, there are many, many songs in the alt-rock genre ("The Blues" and "The Setting Sun" and even the harder-edged "Politicians" by Switchfoot are good examples of this. These songs glorify heaven, talk about how we're all sinful, and look forward to heaven. They may be mainstream rock, but there is none of the angst that you were so vehemently--and convincingly--talking against) that do not glorify sin and still glorify God, all with a different beat/musical style than you may be accustomed to. Also, if you think that Rap can't be redeemed, look up Cross Movement or an artist called Voice. Both of these use rap to glorify God immensly."

    Chris, perhaps I should specify more clearly that the quote I gave was specific to the one area of those genres of music, namely heavy metal. There are reasons why the others identify with it, but I'll get back to that.


    soldier of one said: "Would you please define 'affecting us negatively'?"

    Well, I'm not sure what to make of that question, but let me do my best to address it.

    I don't have to go throught all the rhetoric, but there is a fact of the raw noise of that stuff doing damage. i.e. Plants dying, animals going crazy, if you take an egg to a rock concert and leave it in front of the speakers it will fry from the vibrations, etc.

    What I'm more concerned about is the spiritual damage. Rock, rap, punk, heavy metal, screamo, are all the ultimate spiritual expression in music of a certain lifestyle, of a certain value system, of a certain worship. Look at the icons of those genres outside of their 'Christian' counterparts. Not funny there. Marylin Manson, Rolling Stones... tell me what they're portraying and putting into their music. Is it something with which we identify? Is it something which we want to support? Is it something we would listen to?

    So WHY is the Christian music industry copying and imitating that?

    Maybe because of the money factor, but when we take that music, and put words that purportedly are Christian to it, we've made an inroad to the Christian youth. Oftentimes the words are very vague and obscure in their references to God, if you can hear them at all, but as long as they're there, it will provide a basis of justification for the rest.

    Take a look at the pictures of these Christian rockers. We see more or less an imitation of the vulgar version. You can see it in their eyes, in their attitude, in the tattoos, piercings, poses, and boy can you hear it in the music.

    I'm not condemning those musicians. They need the grace of God too.

    When I was in my early teens, I had a tendency to like music that was loud, rhythmic, beaty, etc, and my parents didn't allow rock music. They never told me why, but as I grew older, I saw why, and eventually I was telling them why.

    The truth is that music is the more powerful of the two arts. It is not easily understood in technicality, and it has a powerful subconscious effect. Therefore, when I hear music, the value of the music is the primarily evaluation point. The words are merely being conveyed on the vehicle of music.

    In light of this, it appears to me that CCM is a greater threat than its secular counterparts. I mean, it has Christian words, and it is so easy to rationalize the rest.

    But it totally exudes spiritual destruction. The attitude, the poses, the conduct, the spirit, the music identify with - something that is not heavenly.

    I'm not saying God can't reach anybody with that, but you know what, I've seen MANY more Christian young people being reached by the devil through it. It breeds rebellion like nothing else.

    Anyway, the Bible says some things about worship and music:

    1Ch 16:29 Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come before him: worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.

    2Ch 20:21 And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the LORD, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the LORD; for his mercy endureth for ever.


    Somehow, heavy metal doesn't fit with 'worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness'. Why? It's a totally different spirit.


    Sorry for rambling on so long with this. :)

     

  • At 2:19 PM, March 11, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    Isaac,

    You make a striking case against Chrisitian Heavy Metal in both posts (as well as some Chrisitan punk music). However, you still have not made any case against Rap, Rock, Alt-Rock, Indie Rock (not that there's many "Christian" Indie Rock bands out there)...the list goes on. Your "Sound of the Beast" excert from the article has made me rethink my view on Heavy Metal/Screamo/Death Metal...but what about the others (although I never have enjoyed that type of music, I didn't really think is wrong that others did)?

    My main question with your argument is this: can you say that many Christian (no quotation marks on this one because I think that many of these band members are, in fact, followers of the Way of Christ) rock artists and/or rap artists doing something sinful? Bands like (and note that I'm not discussing my personal preference here--I may or may not enjoy all of these bands, but I do think that they're glorifying God through both lyrics and music) Jars of Clay, Third Day, MercyMe, Cross Movement, Voice, DC Talk, and Audio Adrenaline. Even more convincing are the number of Christian rock worship artists like: Matt Redman, Delerious, Chris Tomlin, Fernando Ortega, Tree 63...and many more I can't think of off the top of my head. I challange (not belligerantly, but so that you can better understand my position) you to listen to Tree 63 and then tell me that they're music doesn't glorify God (not just their lyrics.) This is a band that to me embodies music as a form of worship for our great and mighty Savior.

    Basically what you're saying in your argument about Christian rock music being evil is that:
    a) the main secular rockers are evil people
    b)some Christian artists imitate their style of music (and I'm not even going to talk about Heavy Metal any more...and I'd appreciate it if you'd try to cover other genres in your arguments...)
    so therefore:
    c) Christian artists are mimicking their secular counterparts for 1)money 2) power 3) fame, and are sinning by doing so

    If we applied this type of thinking to other every day activities, we encounter a serious problem. Take business for example:
    a) many secular businessmen are corrupt and gain their money in a sinful way
    b) Chrisitan businessmen imitate them by trying to suceed (although they're not doing it sinfully like their secular counterparts)
    so therefore (using your process):
    c) Christian businessmen are mimicking their secular counterparts for 1) money 2) fame 3) power

    Obviously, conducting business (which is just as much an every day activity as listening to music) can be redeemed by Christ, and so can music. Can you prove that the secular artists embody what that type of music is? Or is it possible that Christian artists are embodying the true form of that genre of music, and that they're redeeming that type of music.

    Please don't take any of this to mean that I think you a simpleton or that I hold no respect for you or anything...your position is much more thoughtful than many people I know (although I do believe it has some flaws, as stated above).

    Christian Nolan

     

  • At 3:44 PM, March 11, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    Isaac,

    You make a striking case against Chrisitian Heavy Metal in both posts (as well as some Chrisitan punk music). However, you still have not made any case against Rap, Rock, Alt-Rock, Indie Rock (not that there's many "Christian" Indie Rock bands out there)...the list goes on. Your "Sound of the Beast" excert from the article has made me rethink my view on Heavy Metal/Screamo/Death Metal...but what about the others (although I never have enjoyed that type of music, I didn't really think is wrong that others did)?

    My main question with your argument is this: can you say that many Christian (no quotation marks on this one because I think that many of these band members are, in fact, followers of the Way of Christ) rock artists and/or rap artists doing something sinful? Bands like (and note that I'm not discussing my personal preference here--I may or may not enjoy all of these bands, but I do think that they're glorifying God through both lyrics and music) Jars of Clay, Third Day, MercyMe, Cross Movement, Voice, DC Talk, and Audio Adrenaline. Even more convincing are the number of Christian rock worship artists like: Matt Redman, Delerious, Chris Tomlin, Fernando Ortega, Tree 63...and many more I can't think of off the top of my head. I challange (not belligerantly, but so that you can better understand my position) you to listen to Tree 63 and then tell me that they're music doesn't glorify God (not just their lyrics.) This is a band that to me embodies music as a form of worship for our great and mighty Savior.

    Basically what you're saying in your argument about Christian rock music being evil is that:
    a) the main secular rockers are evil people
    b)some Christian artists imitate their style of music (and I'm not even going to talk about Heavy Metal any more...and I'd appreciate it if you'd try to cover other genres in your arguments...)
    so therefore:
    c) Christian artists are mimicking their secular counterparts for 1)money 2) power 3) fame, and are sinning by doing so

    If we applied this type of thinking to other every day activities, we encounter a serious problem. Take business for example:
    a) many secular businessmen are corrupt and gain their money in a sinful way
    b) Chrisitan businessmen imitate them by trying to suceed (although they're not doing it sinfully like their secular counterparts)
    so therefore (using your process):
    c) Christian businessmen are mimicking their secular counterparts for 1) money 2) fame 3) power

    Obviously, conducting business (which is just as much an every day activity as listening to music) can be redeemed by Christ, and so can music. Can you prove that the secular artists embody what that type of music is? Or is it possible that Christian artists are embodying the true form of that genre of music, and that they're redeeming that type of music.

    Please don't take any of this to mean that I think you a simpleton or that I hold no respect for you or anything...your position is much more thoughtful than many people I know (although I do believe it has some flaws, as stated above).

    Christian Nolan

     

  • At 3:46 PM, March 11, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    whooops...sorry for the double-post...I thought it hadn't gone through for some reason :P

    Chris

     

  • At 10:18 PM, March 11, 2006, Blogger Isaac Boskovic said…

    :)

    Chris, the principles of understanding and evaluating music that I presented I believe apply to all genres, and one can utilize it in all genres.

    I will have to decline the opportunity to attack certain bands or artists,(I have rarely found it very edifying and it usually inflames a lot of animosity between participants and a how-dare-you-judge flurry of copouts.) but I will affirm that all of those you mentioned are ones that I do not listen to. I am quite aware of what they offer, I have heard it and seen it, but I would not listen to it. I actually saw Switchfoot live when I was at a trade show in Anaheim, California in January. I didn't stay past the warmup. That would be no place I would want to be found were the Lord to come looking for me.


    Or is it possible that Christian artists are embodying the true form of that genre of music, and that they're redeeming that type of music.

    I don't believe so. You see, music is something which does not change. It has a spirit and a spiritual message, and a spiritual environment, and a set of values which it fosters. That is all integral in the music. No matter what words you put to it, the spirit, the attitude, the message which the music conveys, will not change. It is a powerful element, not only that, it is a powerful spiritual element. And the fact is that we are in a spiritual warfare here, and there are two opposing sides.

    If you are willing to be perfectly honest with yourself, I don't believe it takes an enormous amount of discernment to observe what attitude, what set of values, what spirit is being fostered in whatever music, or by whatever band.

    Deception is one of satan's favorite tools. Allow me to make a drastic comparison: You remember whats-her-name, the pornography 'artist' who claims to be a Christian porn star, witnessing to people who peruse smut? Why, isn't she redeeming the industry? Actually, there are people who consider themselves Christians who think she's just great, and how we need more witnesses in those places.

    It is actually not too far off from what some music bands do.
    It is just more obvious.

    Tied in with this is the ongoing compromise within churches. They think they can reach the world by becoming like them, and the end result is that the church has become worldly, and usually ends up shrinking because who needs to go to church when they have all the same stuff in nightclubs for double the fun. Thats more or less the scenario with CCM.


    Well, you found my argument to be faulty, but I find your comparison to the business realm to be faulty as well. :)

    The problem with Christian music industry is that it is compromising principle for money/power/fame.

    If I were to do that in business, I would be guilty of the same, but it would only affect my own spiritual life. The music industry affects everyone who listens it. The pop-culture influence is extremely hard to avoid. If someone listens to a band's music, he's a fan, and he will begin to value the values which are coming across with the music.

    Spreading spiritual poison, spiritual compromise, and glorifying it is something dangerous. Music is not something that is quite as unimportant as many think.

    CCM has an enormous variety. There's something there for just about anybody. Thats why there are so many gray areas. Thats why you couldn't make enough rules, and that's why it has to be a matter of spiritual discernment.

    The problem with spiritual discernment is this: Kindred spirits identify with each other.

    I know that a bit of a loaded statement, but its completely true. Describe to me the music in your church service, and I'll know exactly what kind of people are in your church. I can more or less tell how they dress, how they act, and why. Not just me, anyone can.

    Another thing about the other genres: Soft rock gets dull, and hard rock doesn't sound so bad anymore, so it starts a process of desensitisation. Its a downward slide, and it rarely goes the other way without some serious thinking reform. And remember, there are no halfway houses in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    So, I'll leave it at this:

    We need to have a high standard of what our spiritual intake is if we expect to be clear, strong, and well grounded against the wiles and deceptions of the enemy. One of the best places to start is with the type of music we listen to. Probably next would be the books we read, and the things we watch. All have their impact on our lives, and it is important to keep our spiritual compass clean and used, with frequent calibrations by spending time with God to learn from Him.

     

  • At 2:48 PM, March 12, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    *laughs*

    What's really sad about the anti-CCM argument is that it doesn't take in the historical music of Israel. God knows (yes He does) that Israel's music could be as soft as classical and also as hard and active as heavy metal. It's that way with any ancient culture. But the key distinction between Israel's and any other civilization's? They used it for the glory of God. Shema Yisrael, Adonai eloheinu, Adonai echad.

    Issac,

    I can't judge you for your standards. In fact, I can only applaud them. You have certainly taken the safer route. (The Pharisees did the same - seeing the commandment and avoiding transgression like the plague, an honorable and righteous attitude). The Rechabites of Scripture were rewarded for such commitment (abstinence from alchohol and commitment to Bedouin-lifestyle) and I pray God reward you for your's.

    One thing I must ask you, though: Are ALL hymns acceptable to you? You do believe that they are good songs and worthy of worship to God? I look forward to your answer.

    I think when it comes to CCM, I'm more with Chris. Although I don't listen to Christain heavy metal, punk, etc., it's mainly because that isn't my musical preference and my hearing is already damaged enough. ;)

    Ultimately, "out of the intent of the heart, the mouth speaks" and the heart of the music, to me, matters more than its beat. Satan can't create (and that includes music) since he comes "only to steal, to kill, and destroy." He cannot create, period.

    Again, this comes into my originistic outlook, but it does line up with Scripture - "the earth is the LORD's and everything in it, the world and all who live in it."

     

  • At 4:17 PM, March 12, 2006, Blogger Isaac Boskovic said…

    :)

    Well, David, on your point about Israel, we'll have to observe that Jews have inherited a very high taste and standard in music. All the top classical musicians are Jews, and they've been at the forefront of society with it all the way back through history. Typical Jewish thought is that it was inherited from King David who was an excellent musician. I wasn't there to hear him, but we know that the psalms were almost all written to music, and we also know that David's primary instrument was a harp, so, even though it was probably pretty lively, I highly doubt the probability of anything like heavy metal coming out of it. :P Solomon was also known for making a place for trained music in society.

    LOL, are you trying to make me feel like a monk because I don't listen to...?

    Are all hymns acceptable to me?

    I could easily say yes, but the more important question would be are they acceptable to God?

    Yes, I find that hymns usually have a very desirable balance of music, words, and worship. But it still is possible to put evil words to good music, and I don't think that would be acceptable to God.

    I don't think good music is in any way confined to hymns. Music stands in its own quality, and there's a lot of good classical, folk, a bit of bluegrass type that doesn't go the route of rock, rap, et cetera ad nauseum infinitum.

    Ultimately, "out of the intent of the heart, the mouth speaks" and the heart of the music, to me, matters more than its beat. Satan can't create (and that includes music) since he comes "only to steal, to kill, and destroy." He cannot create, period.

    Again, this comes into my originistic outlook, but it does line up with Scripture - "the earth is the LORD's and everything in it, the world and all who live in it."

    I agree that the heart of the music is what matters. I thought thats what I've been talking about all along. :P

    About satan not being able to create and the originistic outlook:

    Did God create rock, rap, and all the others we've been talking about? No. He just created music or the ability of music. He created the human body, but he didn't create pornography. He made man upright; but they have sought out many evil inventions.

    So therefore, not all inventions are as God created or intended, and it is important to understand what is relevant today.

     

  • At 4:28 PM, March 12, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    so, even though it was probably pretty lively, I highly doubt the probability of anything like heavy metal coming out of it.

    I was referring more to other traditional songs (particularly those concerning judgment and war) that were known in Israel - not specifically the Psalms.

    LOL, are you trying to make me feel like a monk because I don't listen to...?

    Anything but...I just meant that I had high respect for the position.

    Yes, I find that hymns usually have a very desirable balance of music, words, and worship. But it still is possible to put evil words to good music, and I don't think that would be acceptable to God.

    The reason I asked is because many hymns got their music from bar songs. The music/tune emerged from drunken and, albeit, sinful lifestyle and thought. Yet, the hymn writers did not deem this music to be inappropriate for the use of God's worship. What would people think, back then, on hearing the praises of God to the tune of their own "sinful" music?

    My point in this is to say how music in itself cannot be inherently evil and, ultimately, it is the lyrics of the song that will determine whether it is even acceptable to listen to it.

    Did God create rock, rap, and all the others we've been talking about? No. He just created music or the ability of music. He created the human body, but he didn't create pornography. He made man upright; but they have sought out many evil inventions.

    So therefore, not all inventions are as God created or intended, and it is important to understand what is relevant today.

    I think he created more than the ability to make that music in man. In fact, I would go so far as to say that God planted the thought of rap, rock, heavy metal, etc. into the musician. What perverts it is their lyrics, their message, etc.

    You are correct in saying that God created the human body. Yet, he also created art. Michaelangelo's David is not deemed pornography by any stretch of imagination. Yet, what separates that from any other image of the human body? Intent is my answer. Pornography is a perversion of art, of the human body, and a result of ill-intent.

     

  • At 7:24 PM, March 12, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    Just a quick thought....

    Isaac, you were talking about God creating the Human body, but not pornography. This, of course, is true, but as David was saying, the difference between pornogragphy and innocent beauty is the intent of the person creating either the beatiful work of art of the sinful pornograpghy (by no means am I saying that peopel can't sin by looking at something like Michelangelo's "David"...again, it's about the heart.

    I agree that the heart of the music is what matters. I thought thats what I've been talking about all along. :P

    I think David was referring to the heart of the listener, not the "heart of the music."

    Alrighty...there's my two cents

    Christian Nolan

     

  • At 10:23 PM, March 12, 2006, Blogger Soldier of ONE said…

    The reason I asked is because many hymns got their music from bar songs. The music/tune emerged from drunken and, albeit, sinful lifestyle and thought. Yet, the hymn writers did not deem this music to be inappropriate for the use of God's worship. What would people think, back then, on hearing the praises of God to the tune of their own "sinful" music?

    My point in this is to say how music in itself cannot be inherently evil and, ultimately, it is the lyrics of the song that will determine whether it is even acceptable to listen to it.

    EXACTLY!!! That's just what I was thinking of during this conversation.

    Describe to me the music in your church service, and I'll know exactly what kind of people are in your church. I can more or less tell how they dress, how they act, and why. Not just me, anyone can.

    Let's put your theory to the test. :) I honestly am not confident that you're going to be able to. It borders on stereotyping. I actually led worship today, so I can testify to the time of music we play. If you go to http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/music/
    projects/worshiplive, you can listen to samples of some of the songs we played today. I can tell you flat out that we play a lot of contemporary songs, like "Blessed Be Your Name," "In the Secret," etc. Please attempt to describe for me the atmosphere in my church. :)

    Did God create rock, rap, and all the others we've been talking about? No. He just created music or the ability of music.

    What kind of music did He create then? You almost contradict yourself. Rock and rap (no matter how much you dislike them) are still considered music, are they not?

    Where do you draw the line? What is offensive to you? Do you dislike distorted electric guitar? Drums? Bass guitar? Fast tempos? How do you say, "This song is wrong, but this one is good"? Where is the line? Please give me a standard, but bear in mind that you will have to back it up with Scripture.

     

  • At 7:54 PM, March 13, 2006, Anonymous Simon Templar said…

    I think that there are elements of truth in both sides of the discussion here.

    Certain types of music produce deliberate effects in people. It is our tendancy to assume that certain effects are always bad, or always good, thus we assume that certain types of music are bad or good.

    I think the assumption there that the effects are always bad or always good are wrong. For example, no one is ever going to mistake metallica style rock for 'worship music'. It engenders aggressive feelings.
    Soft, mellow, almost airy music, on the other hand, produces peaceful, meditative feelings so we ascociate it with worship.
    In the contemporary scene we have lively up beat songs that encourage happy, joyful feelings that we ascociate with praise and worship, these encourage dancing shouting etc.

    Now, we all pretty much assume that he peaceful meditative music is good and the metallica aggressive music is bad, and we're probably split somewhat on the lively joyful music.

    The peaceful meditative music does invoke feelings in us conducive to worship.. but it is not used exclusively by christians. New agers and eastern mystics use exactly the same kind of music to induce their trance like states and to worship themselves, the 'god within', or the universal soul, or whatever other double speak names you care to apply.

    The joyful exuberant lively music reminds us of david dancing before the ark and shouts of praise... but it could just as easily serve the prophets of baal dancing and shouting before their idol. The same style of music is used for praise and exuberant worship by both christians and pagans and this is not a new development, its been that way for centuries.

    that leaves the aggressive rock music. This music conjures images for us of angst ridden teens dressed in black with mullets and metallica t-shirts, maybe dog collars etc.. in that context it feeds their feelings of anger and rebellion.
    But something often forgotten by christians is that to everything under the sun there is a season appointed. There are times when it is necessary and appropriate to be aggressive and to engender aggressive feelings. This is why this type of music has been used for centuries to prepare warriors for battle, why football teams use it today to prepare players to be aggressive on the field, why weight lifters use it to push themselves to their physical limits.

    personally I hate rap and hip hop, because I can't stand the culture that it fosters, and that produced it. In my opinion that culture is really the degredation of culture. I know of no good purpose served by rap music :) but then again I am slightly biased.

     

  • At 8:12 PM, March 13, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    Well Simon, you obviously haven't listened to Cross Movement or Voice (two excellent , Cross centered rap artists who completely fight that "rap culture" of money, image, girls, and violence...I highly recommend them to you as artists that glorify God through this genre. Bob Kauflin (the worship leader of Covenant Life Church, of Sovereign Grace Ministries) said of Voice that he is single-handedly redeeming rap music. Anyway, Voice's site is: www.ihearvoice.com

    Christian Nolan

    PS: the beauty of rap music is that there is so much potential for so many words of truth to be communicated in each song (more words than are in many songs of other genres of music)

     

  • At 8:43 PM, March 13, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    "The reason I asked is because many hymns got their music from bar songs. The music/tune emerged from drunken and, albeit, sinful lifestyle and thought."
    FALSE! This error came from someone who heard that these songs had "bar melodies". Anyone who has studied music knows that a bar is a piece of music - not refering to a drunken bar. I read an article that disproved this rumor.

     

  • At 8:56 PM, March 13, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    Apparently there is some division over the fact but many seem to agree that Charles Wesley used bar tunes in writing some of his hymns. (And, for a fact, this was in a CHURCH HISTORY text as well...a Church historian/scholar said as much...and he isn't of the Contemporary school either).

     

  • At 9:40 PM, March 13, 2006, Blogger Isaac Boskovic said…

    (With this blog comment page we should have no problem getting to a mile long.) :P

    David Ketter, you said:
    The reason I asked is because many hymns got their music from bar songs. The music/tune emerged from drunken and, albeit, sinful lifestyle and thought. Yet, the hymn writers did not deem this music to be inappropriate for the use of God's worship. What would people think, back then, on hearing the praises of God to the tune of their own "sinful" music?

    It's not the first time I've heard that argument, and I would challenge you to search it out yourself to identify the facts, because the statement that Luther used bar tunes in his music is at best a baseless rumor, and is not true. But even if it were, I would not consider it appropriate to do such a thing, particularly in a time when it would still be used in the sinful, sensual culture.

    Here is what Luther did have to say about music:
    "Next to the Word of God, music deserves the highest praise. She is a mistress and governess of those human emotions.... which govern men as masters or, more often, overwhelm them. No greater commendation can be found -- at least, not by us. For whether you wish to comfort the sad, to humble the proud, to terrify the happy, to calm the passionate, or to appease those full of hate.... what more effective means than music could you find?
    And you, my young friend, let this noble, wholesome, and cheerful creation of God be commended to you. By it you may escape shameful desires and bad company. At the same time you may by this creation accustom yourself to recognize and praise the Creator. Take special care to shun perverted minds who prostitute this lovely gift of nature and art with their erotic rantings; and be quite assured that none by the devil goads them on to defy their very nature, which would and should praise God its Maker with this gift, so that these bastards purloin the gift of God and use it to worship the foe of God, the enemy of nature and of this lovely art."

    Martin Luther thought very strongly on this subject, as he did on just about everything. He used more powerful terms than I would dare to use in this scenario. I believe his description would probably be tenfold as scathing were he to hear what kind of 'music' exists today. Most of these genres never existed until the last 60 years.

    soldier of one, I checked out that link, and even though I failed to find the titles you mentioned, I got a good idea of the styles.

    (You know, a lot of it isn't much different than I would expect to hear blaring in a store somewhere. Very typical pop/rock.)

    I'll be generous and say that your atmosphere is 'contemporary'. :P (or in more religious words, on the worldly side.)

    David Ketter said:
    I think he created more than the ability to make that music in man. In fact, I would go so far as to say that God planted the thought of rap, rock, heavy metal, etc. into the musician. What perverts it is their lyrics, their message, etc.

    Wwhoooaaaa!

    Well, maybe God planted the perversion too? (Is that a bit of Calvinist theology cropping up?)

    Like I said before, music is an art that stands on its own. It will be pure on its own, and it can be perverted on its own. The lyrics are likewise. You can't make perverted lyrics good by covering them up with good music. Understood? In the same way you cannot redeem perverted music by putting good words to it. The music stands in its own virtue and the words stand in their own virtue. If you mix the two, you have nothing but confusion, or deception. And no marvel, for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (2 Corinthians 11:14) Since its in style, I would go so far as to say that rap, rock, heavy metal, punk are ALL perversions of music.

    To create a GOOD song requires that the music and the words complement each other, not phase each other out, or tear each other down. What makes Luther's 'A Mighty Fortresst' such a powerful hymn? The music complements the words and the words the music, and both are a beautiful work of art. (Thats another thing, the lack of art in contemporary song in either lyrics or music.)

    The Bible states this principle:
    If a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

    If a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

    And I will say that if a song is divided against itself it will not stand. And if it cannot stand, it will fall. And it will fall upon those who stand under its influence! Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
    Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
    Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.


    The standard is this:
    1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    Friends, God has given us the spirit of power and of love and of a sound mind. Don't trade it for anything less, neither be drawn away by that which appeals to the flesh. 'This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.' (Galatians 5:16)




    (Sorry if I got carried away with this long post. :) )

     

  • At 9:50 PM, March 13, 2006, Blogger Isaac Boskovic said…

    Two additional comments while I was typing!

    Spelling correction:

    '...and be quite assured that none by the devil goads them on to defy...'

    Should read:
    '...and be quite assured that none but the devil goads them on to defy...'

     

  • At 10:35 PM, March 13, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    Well Isaac, you almost couldn't be more wrong in your assumption of Soldier of One's church (if he is, in fact, part of a Sovereign Grace church where those very songs you so generously deemed "contemporary" were written and are played each sunday). I am a part of a Sovereign Grace church in Lancaster called Crossway Church of Lancaster. We place a huge emphasis on being gospel centered in everything we do as a church. Also, part of our belief is to be "Reformed with a significant charismatic element." Our worship reflects our love for our Savior, but don't think that we simply get caught up in an "emotional experience." We practice Calvanism, and place a large emphasis on doctrine (i.e. the doctrines of grace, sin, etc.) Josh Harris (who has written books about lust, relationships, and getting back to the local church) is the Senior Pastor at Covenent Life Chrurch in Gathersburg Maryland. Bob Kauflin (www.worshipmatters.com is his online blog. Josh's blog is http://joshharrisblogson.blogspot.com/) leads worship at this church, and I rarely seen such a careful, thoughtful, godly man seek out how to worship God in a good manner (and yes he uses many musical styles to worship God and praise Him for sending His Son to die for our sins). Sovereign Grace vehemently tries to steer clear of the worldliness that so easily creeps into daily lives. (I don't know if you'd have time to listen to some of their messages available online for free at http://www.covlife.org/tools/sermons.php I would recommend the Affluenza series--3 messages long--to see what our group of churches thinks about worldliness.). Have you ever read Wayne Grudem's book Systematic Theology (it's humongous, and I haven't read all of it yet)? This is a book that Sovereign Grace churches try to model themselves after. All this to say that you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover (or a church by its musical style :P)

    You see, Isaac, stereotyping really doesn't work, as there are many exceptions to any stereotyping rule. This also applies to music. You can stereotype Rock music as sinful, but what if you're wrong, and many Christian Rock songs are the exception to your "rules." In many cases (note I didn't say all cases), when you make a list of do's and dont's, you end up with a set of rules that cannot stop you from sinning and does not allow for grace. Also, legalism is a sin, because it essentially turns into works-based salvation, not salvation from Christ.

    You were talking about how music and lyrics must stand together. Well, who's to say that in Rock songs they never act harmoniously together. Again, you've been judging this part of things by your personal music preference (because to someone else they may sound perfect together as complementary with both God glorifying lyrics and God glorifying music).


    Your quote from Martin Luther really doesn't bolster your position. He seems to be addressing lyrics and not musical style. Nowhere does he say "and this style is being used; curse this style of music." He says (part of your quote):

    Take special care to shun perverted minds who prostitute this lovely gift of nature and art with their erotic rantings; and be quite assured that none by the devil goads them on to defy their very nature, which would and should praise God its Maker with this gift, so that these bastards purloin the gift of God and use it to worship the foe of God, the enemy of nature and of this lovely art.

    He is talking about the "erotic rantings," not "terrible chords." he says these evil people are using their gift of music, which they should praise their Maker with their words and not use music (note he did not say "certain musical styles to worship the foe of God,") lyrics to worship Satan. It appears to me that he never mentions genre, style, or anything other than lyrical content. He simply warns that people can use their gifts to praise God (lyrics) or Satan (again, lyrics)

    Like Isaac, I apologize for the longish post ;)

    Christian Nolan

     

  • At 10:51 PM, March 13, 2006, Blogger Soldier of ONE said…

    Simon Templar...

    Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! That's EXACTLY what I say!! "To everything there is a season."

    Well, maybe God planted the perversion too? (Is that a bit of Calvinist theology cropping up?)

    So you're anti-Calvinist too? Why didn't I suspect...*sigh*... But that's another discussion. :)

    I'll be generous and say that your atmosphere is 'contemporary'. :P (or in more religious words, on the worldly side.)

    Thanks for being "generous." Are you saying that all contemporary music is wrong? By the way, as for your description of the atomosphere in my church, I'll be generous and say that it's slightly incorrect.

    You refused to answer my challenge to give me a standard, or maybe you just missed it. But that's ok, I'll fill it in for you.

    THERE IS NONE!

    Try as you might, you CANNOT draw an objective standard from the Bible that gives a list of criteria for "righteous" music. You CANNOT create a list of specifications that all songs must meet to be considered righteous. You CAN (as you have done) draw implications from Scripture about how music should be spiritually discerned. All this to say that there is no objective standard for music except this: You must discern it spiritually. "We are no longer under the law, but under grace." THEREFORE...each person must discern spiritually for themselves what music is edifying and what is not. This brings us back to the fact that music is a liberty garden issue, as I have maintained all along.

    And Chris, I agree wholeheartedly with you. I'm not sure if our church is considered a Sovereign Grace church or not, but we use Wayne Grudem's book as well. As a matter of fact, Josh Harris' dad, Gregg Harris, is the founding elder of our church. I go to church with him and his family (including Alex and Brett of The Rebelution).

     

  • At 10:55 PM, March 13, 2006, Blogger Soldier of ONE said…

    Oh yes, I forgot to mention...if you want to take a closer look at my church, go to www.hofcc.org. :)

     

  • At 9:43 PM, March 14, 2006, Blogger Isaac Boskovic said…

    Well Chris, I'm not going to challenge what you say, but if you would, perhaps think about why one would adopt a 'contemporary' (or in religious terms, on the worldly side) method of worship. Worldly is a term and concept that has relative connotations.

    Again, you've been judging this part of things by your personal music preference

    That is partly true and partly not, because my personal tastes and preferences have been subordinated to that which I know to be right.

    Your quote from Martin Luther really doesn't bolster your position. He seems to be addressing lyrics and not musical style.


    Well, I don't care to start a theological study of Martin Luther quotes, but it seems apparent to me that the context of the discourse is plainly 'music'. 'Erotic rantings'? Sounds like rap would be qualified to fit that style of music.


    So you're anti-Calvinist too? Why didn't I suspect...*sigh*... But that's another discussion. :)

    Hey brother! Do relax, I'm not 'anti-Calvinist'. Theologically, I'm not aligned with the Calvinist view, but I'm not 'against Calvinists'! :) I won't take
    this offtopic though.

    I did give a standard, although it might not have been what you were looking for.
    1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    But you were waiting for me to lay down a law of what good music is and what bad music is so that you could attack it, right? :) But I'm not going to. I would like rather to promote an understanding of the entity of music, and then one can with understanding spiritually discern whether 'it be of God or not'.

    So that brings us back to a point which seems to be festering a bit. Jonathan pointed it out at the beginning: You are assuming that words can be perverted, but music cannot; that music by itself is an unpervertable element.

    That assumption or conclusion I find to be false, and logically unreasonable. As I pointed out before, you cannot make evil lyrics good by putting good music to it. And you cannot make perverted music good by putting good words to it.

    You disagree with me on that, so lets take a look at where that leads: You say that putting good words to 'any music' redeems that music. Then you must also admit that putting good music to 'any words' would be redeeming those words. Or, if you take the position that all music is inherently pure, then you can put absolutely any music (for it is pure) to absolutely any words (however evil it may be) and they will both redeem each other. In fact, all songs must be good then.


    As I said before, music stands in its own realm, and lyrics in their own realm. Both can be created, both can be perverted, both have the potential to be good or evil independent of each other.

    But they are both different. Lyrics are of a technical nature; they can be studied technically, understood technically, rationalized technically...etc.
    Music is more of a spiritual nature than a technical. It is very difficult to be evaluated technically in the same way as lyrics. It has a power of bypassing the technical guards of intelligence and sowing to the subconscious mind.

    And because of its spiritual nature, music is the more powerful of the two, the more important of the two, the less understood, but still the more tenacious and more valued of the two.

    To deny that music is capable of spiritual warfare is to set yourself up to be deceived. The Bible says 'try the spirit'. To deny the potential of there being a spiritual threat is to foreclose defense, and invite infiltration.


    Please understand, I'm not trying to attack, judge, or condemn the Harrises or others. They have a work and mission and they're doing great things out there. But allow me to suggest that if they were to avoid bringing worldly culture and pop music into the worship service, they would be one significant step further in fighting the worldly pop culture mindset and influence.

    You know, it may be considered a liberty garden issue, but liberty garden issues are often the areas we need to watch with most diligence, because they are usually areas where a progressive relativism develops, and worldliness gains a foothold.

    So don't worry guys. I'm not in here to convert you all or to impose my view on everone. What my purpose is in this is to 'provoke' serious thought and consideration and stimulate a greater understanding of this issue.

    Oh, I almost missed this one: No, I've not read Systematic Theology.

     

  • At 11:43 PM, March 14, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    Isaac,

    In Martin Luther's quote, does he mention different music styles once? It seems apparent to me that he is only addressing evil lyrics (to say otherwise would be to misquote Martin Luther for this particular bit), not musical styles (so maybe he did believe that different music could be sinful, but you shouldn't have used this quote to back your position, because it's rather irrelevant to the issue of differing genres being sinful or no).

    Also, those verses you're using seem rather out of context (the 1 John verse is talking about false preachers. I see your point, but it seems that John was not addressing music at all here--there are many other portions of Scripture, Psalm 150 among them, that speak much more clearly on Scripture).

    Here is some Scripture (unlike your use of 1 John) that does address music directly

    Psalm 150 Verses 3-6 (ESV):
    3Praise him with trumpet sound;
    praise him with lute and harp!
    4Praise him with tambourine and dance;
    praise him with strings and pipe!
    5Praise him with sounding cymbals;
    praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
    6Let everything that has breath praise the LORD!
    Praise the LORD!

    Do "loud clashing cymbals" always sound greatly "musical"? Could this be something akin to rock music? "Tambourines and dancing!" "Lute and Harp!" "Strings and Pipe!" "Trumpet sounds!" Does this sound like only hymns (or excluding many musical styles?)? God is encouraging the use of many different styles (which couples with the "For everything there is a season" in Ecclesiates 3). God is saying it is good to worship Him with many different muscial styles. He loves variety! He created it!

    You disagree with me on that, so lets take a look at where that leads: You say that putting good words to 'any music' redeems that music. Then you must also admit that putting good music to 'any words' would be redeeming those words. Or, if you take the position that all music is inherently pure, then you can put absolutely any music (for it is pure) to absolutely any words (however evil it may be) and they will both redeem each other. In fact, all songs must be good then.

    No! What I've been saying is that it is a one way street! Evil lyrics overides any music (it's like the gift of oratory. A great Orator can glorify God with his words, or he can demean the principles of God. No matter how beautiful his words sound, you can't justify them because "they sound so beautiful."). However , good music can never "redeem" evil lyrics. To me, the perversion of music comes when evil lyrics are applied to music. Music is one of God's greatest gifts to us; it can become one of the most terrible sins for us to commit to twist His purpose of worship of Him into worship of self in the lyrics.

    If you are going to respond, please use the Psalms, or use other portions of the Bible that talk about music more directly, because the Bible has so much to say about music directly that you needn't go away into other passages to find God's standard for music.

    While there is a place for application of Biblical truth to other parts of life that they do not directly address, it's always best to go to the portions that actually address the issue directly!

    Christian Nolan

    PS: Isaac, you should really read Systematic Theology (not that it really covers this topic in super depth or anything...it's just an amazing, close look at theology as it can be drawn from Scripture. Wayne Grudem usually also covers the usual objections to the conclusions he reaches, and shows why they're baseless in Scripture :D)

     

  • At 12:03 AM, March 15, 2006, Blogger Soldier of ONE said…

    Hey brother! Do relax, I'm not 'anti-Calvinist'. Theologically, I'm not aligned with the Calvinist view, but I'm not 'against Calvinists'!

    Well, that's good to know. From your tone of writing when you mentioned it before, I thought you were vehemently against the way of thinking. We'll have to discuss that some other time. :)

    You are assuming that words can be perverted, but music cannot; that music by itself is an unpervertable element.

    And you are assuming that music CAN be perverted. I have yet to see proof of that. How can sounds, or a collection of sounds be good or evil? They have no meaning in and of themselves; as you say, they are different than lyrics. They MUST be spiritually discerned. As you say. So then each must discern himself. So it's a liberty garden issue.

    Then you must also admit that putting good music to 'any words' would be redeeming those words.

    Ah...no. As I have maintained all along, music by itself is neutral. It cannot make a song good or evil by itself. The only thing that matters is the lyrics.

    As I said before, music stands in its own realm, and lyrics in their own realm.

    Agreed.

    But they are both different. Lyrics are of a technical nature; they can be studied technically, understood technically, rationalized technically...etc.
    Music is more of a spiritual nature than a technical. It is very difficult to be evaluated technically in the same way as lyrics. It has a power of bypassing the technical guards of intelligence and sowing to the subconscious mind.

    Also agreed. And yet I do not believe that mere sounds or collections of sounds can be good or evil. The very thought seems ludicrous. Yes, it can inspire feelings, but are feelings themselves good or evil? I find they are not.

    You know, it may be considered a liberty garden issue, but liberty garden issues are often the areas we need to watch with most diligence, because they are usually areas where a progressive relativism develops, and worldliness gains a foothold.

    Liberty garden issues are NOT issues that we watch for our friends. We watch our own gardens. The only time we can step in is when they take the issue out of the garden and into territory that the Bible clearly has something to say on. Except for that, all we can do with those who are not "gardening" the way we would is to suggest a change based on the fruit they are bearing, and when they don't, say "Ok, it's your choice. You choose how best to produce fruit for God. Bear in mind that you will account for your fruit (or lack thereof)." And leave it at that. Unless a brother is doing something clearly unbiblical, we should not reprove him for it unless it makes us (or another brother stumble).

    Let me break down how I see it to a simple logical progression.

    Premises
    1. Any subject that the Bible does NOT clearly set guidelines for is considered a liberty garden issue. (Based on Romans 14){(x)(if ~Gx, then Lx)}
    2. The Bible does not set clear guidelines for musical styles and which are good and evil. (~Gm)
    3. All liberty garden issues are to be solely the ultimate responsibility of the gardener (unless he is making a brother stumble). (x)(if ~Sx & Lx, then Rx)

    Conclusion
    4. If my choice of musical styles is not making my brother stumble, then it is solely my responsibility. (if ~Sm, then Rm)

    Proof
    5. if (~Sm & Lm), then Rm using 3 by Universal Instantiation
    6. if ~Gm, then Lm using 1 by Universal Instantiation
    7. Lm using 2,6 by Modus Ponens
    8. |~Sm by Assumption Proof
    9. |~Sm & Lm using 7,8 by Conjunction
    10. |Rm using 5,9 by Modus Ponens
    11. If ~Sm, then Rm using 8-10 by Conditional Proof

    Actually, it wasn't quite as simple as I thought, lol. It got more complicated the longer I looked at it. Check my work, logic buffs...make sure I didn't make a dumb goof. ;) Anyway, all this to say that if my musical choices are not making my brother stumble, then they should be mine and mine alone, with the understanding that I will account to God someday for the fruit (or lack thereof) that I bear for Him from that choice.

    By the way Isaac, I'm not debating your choice or your preference or how you "garden." If you personally believe that some music is wrong for you to listen to, then God bless you! Don't listen to it, so you won't violate your conscience. I have no issue with that whatsoever. I won't make you listen to my music, I'll keep it away from you, and I won't talk about it in your presence. I will not make you stumble in that way. I only have a problem if you say definitively that some music is wrong for EVERYONE. Then I have issues...it's like you spraying Round-Up in your garden and the wind carrying it into mine...I'm like, "Hey!!" Lol...:)

    My goodness, that was a long post...lol, sorry for the book!! :)

     

  • At 2:03 PM, March 15, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    I'd like to divert the stream of conversation here to more specific realms. In your opinion (for those who have listened to them), what are the pros and cons of modern groups? Please name the group (i.e. Jars of Clay), then list pros and cons.

     

  • At 6:24 PM, March 15, 2006, Blogger Isaac Boskovic said…

    Jonathan, I'll just wrap up what the outstanding questions, and then I'll be out of the way for a bit. :)

    Chris Minich said:
    Isaac,

    In Martin Luther's quote, does he mention different music styles once?

    There were only two types of music that I read of there. Good music, and bad music. :)

    I'm sorry if you think I'm using Scripture out of context. It seems to me to be quite relevant to how we relate to such things as music.

    Psalm 150 is marvelous! I like it even better in KJV:
    Isaac,

    Psa 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
    Psa 150:2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
    Psa 150:3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
    Psa 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
    Psa 150:5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
    Psa 150:6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD


    I agree with you completely. God loves music, and he loves a variety of music. I've always maintained that there is much music outside the realm of hymns that is very good music. 'Via Dolorosa' is an example of a very good contemporary song. The words are very potent, and the music is incredible on its own, and it also fits the words so perfectly.

    soldier of one said:
    How can sounds, or a collection of sounds be good or evil? They have no meaning in and of themselves

    I fear that argument is very weak. Look, words are just sounds and a collection of sounds, and they have meaning.

    Music is also sounds and collections of sounds, and it does have meaning. That meaning is not easily understood in a cognitive sense, but what I have been trying to tell you is that music conveys a spirit and a spiritual message. It is not as specific as words, but it still has that inherent soul.

    Nobody can cultivate your garden for you, so, I hope I haven't stepped on your liberty garden. :P

    Mathematical logic...LOL, that was entertaining!

    So, pros and cons of modern groups.
    I herewith reserve comment, whereas I prefer not to officiate the premier of this phase. :P

     

  • At 8:33 PM, March 15, 2006, Anonymous Chris Minich said…

    Matt Redman
    Pros: excellent worship music. As Matt sings you can really tell that he's worshipping his Savior, not just singing words for his job. His songs are quite deep, and focus on praising God for His works (especially at the Cross).

    Cons: If you don't like worship with a beat...but other than that not much to say against him.

    Tree 63
    Pros: Tree 63 is a rockin band! They sound great (to me anyway :P), they're music is always worshipful of the Savior (each song is thoughtful, introspective, and praising the Savior)

    Cons: again, I can't think of much...if you don't like guys who don't sing high notes...then maybe this isn't the band for you ;)

    Now for a more controversial band :D

    Let's hear it for:
    Switchfoot

    This band has sparked many discussions with among my friends and I. Are they Christians? Should they be classified as a Christian band?
    NOTE: I enjoy Switchfoot's music and appreciate their message...so this might be a bit biased (although I'll try for as an objective opinion as I can).

    Pros: Good music (in my--and many others I know--opinion)! Also, they have thoughtful lyrics (some accuse them of not coming out and saying they're Christians or holding back from speaking about the gospe for money and secular famel. I can dig out a quote from Jon Foreman--lead singer of Switchfoot--to combat some of this view if you would like to discuss Switchfoot further). If you think about the lyrics in their new CD Nothing Is Sound, you will find many Biblical truths in there (one song, "Happy is a Yuppy Word," is a mirror of Ecclesiates, explaining that nothing on this earth can satisfy us. "Lonely Nation" decries America's materialism and longs for something more--the something more defined in "The Blues" and "The Setting Sun" as Heaven. "The Shadow Proves the Sunshine" is patterned after the Psalms--read a Psalm and then listen to it...quite similar. It speaks of how the shadows/evils of life prove the sunshine of God's goodness. "Politicians" is not a politically charged song as the title suggests, but explains that we as humans are all sinful, we're all broken and bitter...so we shouldn't blame others. "Daisy" speaks of letting things in this worlds go...and not focusing on this world as something to satisfy us...). Their album "The Beautiful Letdown" is arguably their most "secular--" and it is what hurdled them into sucess. Their album "Learning to Breathe" was definitely written by Christians, as was "New Way to be Human" (one song saying "El Elyon my only hope"). Their career has been one of treating Christian truths and putting them in a light that anyone can see them. They speak of the emptiness of this fallen world, and then speak of their longing for Heaven. In their song "Economy of Mercy," Jon sings, "the scars that mark your skin/in the currency of grace is where my song begins." This bit of a song is not an exception to the rule of their songs...it is what marks them as a band.

    Cons: They never truly spell out the Gospel in their songs. Additionally, they often do not worship God in ways that a passerby could easily identify with (as is easy with Matt Redman). This leads some to believe that Switchfoot is not a Christian Band, but enjoys the limelight of coddling both the world and Christians for a fatter paycheck (to which I say "just because they have an effect on the secular world as well as the Christian culture, does that make them an evil, money-grubbing band?" but I digress...)

    In conclusion, I believe that the people in Switchfoot are Christians, that they're music can be listened to and the listener can glorify God for his truths (as long as they put their thinking cap on :-)! )

    Christian Nolan

     

  • At 10:35 PM, March 15, 2006, Blogger Soldier of ONE said…

    Nobody can cultivate your garden for you, so, I hope I haven't stepped on your liberty garden. :P


    Thank you very much. That was all I was looking for. I'll talk preferences (or why you garden the way you do) with you all day long, I only take issue when people say definitively that some music is wrong for all people, which you are evidently not doing. Enjoyed discussing with you, Isaac!

    Falling Up -

    Pros: Lyrics that really make you think. Their lyrics are very thought provoking and their music is always fairly well-written.

    Cons: A little on the hard side for some people; like Switchfoot, they are hard to identify with unless you come from the rocker background or prefer that kind of music. Also, some complain that their lyrics make no sense. They admittedly do not until you look up the verses that they base the songs on; then they really inspire thought.

     

  • At 4:33 PM, March 16, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    Great discussion, gentlemen...I enjoyed it. Here are some of my evaluations:

    Casting Crowns

    Pros: A Christ-centered, ministry-focused band, Casting Crowns is adamant on the Truth and there is no denying their passion for it. I recently went to State College, PA to hear them live. They said early on, "This is a worship service, not a concert." and also "This is great to have this ministry [touring as a band] but we all agree that our ministry in the local church [they are all leaders in an Atlanta youth ministry] comes first."

    So, they've got their priorities straight, preach to the Lost and the Church with power and the authority given by God.

    Cons: Admittedly, their music may be too "hard" for some or too "soft" for others. Musically speaking, they are talented and stick to the proverbial middle ground when it comes to style.

    MercyMe

    Pros: MercyMe is much the same as Casting Crowns (except about the ministry part). They have become a near-essential part of the worship movement in the CCM movement - with songs like "I Can Only Imagine" and "Unaware" taking hold in the churches around the country.

    Cons: MercyMe's message is pretty down to earth: God is our Savior and we love Him. While this is excellent and a proper attitude for worship, they don't quite take on the issues like Casting Crowns (few do).

    ApologetiX

    Pros: By far the most controversial band I could mention. ApologetiX basically does parodies, providing a Christian message to tunes that the world is familiar with - everything from 50's love songs to Eminem's latest beat. Their two-part style (as they say, part Weird Al, part Billy Graham) has brought many to Christ and has made inroads to South America and Europe - even catching the attention of unashamedly worldly artists like Ozzy Osbourne and Kid Rock.

    Cons: Because they use the same tunes, ApologetiX will probably be offensive in some sectors who will view it as "compromise." Others might think it funny but don't care to listen to it too often.

    (BTW, I have a fairly close blood connection to one of the band members. :D)

    And that's all for my evaluation. Off to work!

    Great job to Chris, Isaac, and Thomas!

     

  • At 2:05 PM, March 28, 2006, Blogger Matt A. said…

    I can't believe I missed this! This is one of my favorite discussions...oh well!

     

  • At 9:26 AM, September 25, 2009, Blogger Robert Wayne Wood said…

    As a former CCM lover and being redeemed out of the deception, I can tell you CCM lovers will make all the excuses to love the fleshly CCM music. I know for I did for many years. The Bible clearly teaches separation from the evil ways and means of the world, but our flesh will crave and excuse the CCM music till hell freezes over. No amount of Bible scriptures and discussions will convince anyone to walk away from CCM until the Holy Spirit is allowed into their heart to change those cravings. God be with you.

     

  • At 2:02 PM, November 22, 2009, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Who knows where to download XRumer 5.0 Palladium?
    Help, please. All recommend this program to effectively advertise on the Internet, this is the best program!

     

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