Kingdom Knights: Fight the Scandal

1 Peter 3:15-16: "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander." (NIV)

Thursday, February 02, 2006

Narnia: Discussion

Narnia: A disscussion between David Ketter and Jonathan McCarthy concerning the issues.

posted by Jonathan M @ 1:23 PM  

20 Comments:

  • At 8:36 PM, February 02, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    Well, I guess I'll just start this off. In light of the recent production of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, C.S. Lewis' famed work in The Chronicles of Narnia have been put before the public's collective eye and there is a renewed interest in the works of this unapologetically Christian author. There are many, Christian and non-Christian, who question the content, symbolism, and other aspects of the Narnia series that, perhaps, at first glance would not be expected in Christian literature. For that reason, Jonathan and I have decided to put our exchanges on the matter here. And with that, I turn the floor over to Jonathan.
    David

     

  • At 9:47 PM, February 02, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    David, let's get started with a brief synopsis of the Narnia story for those who don't know anything about it. Could you summarize for us the basic gist of the series - with a more detailed focus on the first episode The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe?

     

  • At 8:59 PM, February 04, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    The Chronicles of Narnia record the adventures of the four Pevensies, a cousin, his friend, and two adults who had similar experiences as children. Beginning with The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, we meet Peter, Susan, Edmund, and Lucy - sent off to the country manor of an eccentric professor to protect them from any of the dangers of World War II (this begins shortly after the German air raid over England). During their stay, they come across (accidentally, they believe) a door to a whole new universe - a land called Narnia.

    Lucy, the youngest of the four, is the first to discover Narnia - meeting a faun named Tumnus who, although originally intending to betray her, tells her instead of the wicked mistress who enslaved this land with her icy spells. She can't wait to involve her older siblings - if they would believe her.

    Circumstances over-rule, however, and despite their unbelief, they soon find themselves in the adventure of a lifetime - running from the White Witch and reaching the Great Lion, Aslan - in whom the Talking Beasts of Narnia place their hope. Old prophecies come into play as the Pevensies discover that "two sons of Adam and two daughters of Eve" were foretold to come and end the reign of the Witch.

    All this would have been fine except for one thing: Edmund unwittingly betrayed his brother and sisters, going over to the White Witch before reaching Aslan. All too late, he realizes his mistake. And yet, just before the Witch can have her way with him and destroy the hope of the prophecy, he is rescued by Aslan's forces.

    Later, the Witch confronts Aslan - citing the "Deep Magic" that demands all traitors be turned over to her or Narnia will be punished "by fire and water" if not so. Aslan, after having to silence his cohorts, steps aside with the Witch for a conference. No one knows what was said there, but she released her claim on Edmund and the Pevensies' relationship was restored.

    Preparing for battle, they hardly noticed that Aslan slipped away in the night (aside from Susan and Lucy, that is). Later, they watch in horror as Aslan is mocked, beaten, bound, and killed as he offers himself up for Edmund. The Witch (and the army that had massed to her) leaves.

    Still in mourning in the waning hours of the night, the girls do what they can for the now-dead Asland - removing his muzzle and the bonds that held him with the aid of mice. To their shock, Aslan comes back from the dead.

    [Continued in the next post]

     

  • At 8:04 PM, February 09, 2006, Blogger Lindsey said…

    Looks like a very fascinating conversation! Can't wait to here more on both your views on this.

     

  • At 10:42 AM, February 11, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    Through the rest of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, we see the continued adventures of the Pevensies and their crowning as the Kings and Queens of Narnia. Of course, they, by accident, do return many yeas later (although, by some means, Narnian time moves strangely different than earthly time, bringing it to a few hours in the real world).

    The other books, Prince Caspian, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, The Silver Chair, The Horse and His Boy, The Magician's Nephew, and The Last Battle detail the adventures of the Pevensies and those of whom they had come into contact with - including the Professor, their cousin Eustace Scrubb and his friend Jill Pole. Through them, you see the culmination of Aslan's will and the perfection in the world-to-come.

    [End of synopsis]

    Jonathan, I'll now turn it over to you.

    [end of synopsis]

     

  • At 12:09 PM, February 11, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    Thanks, David. Let's talk about some of the elements that some Christians may be a little leery about. I think one of the biggest issues is the magic involved. Why shouldn't this be a problem?

     

  • At 10:11 PM, February 11, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    Good question, Jonathan.

    You are right that magic is one of THE primary issues that most conservative Christians want to weigh when discerning between books. Narnia, however, I find to be VERY acceptable and for a few reasons.

    When judging on this, you want to look at three primary aspects of any magic present: user, location, availability, and origins.

    For instance, in Narnia, the White Witch (obviously evil) engages in sorcery and is condemned for it - that's a positive thing and most people are not concerned with that. Any occurences of "occult" arts and "wizardry" by good characters (Prince Caspian's tutor, Ramandu, etc.) must always be NON-human and kept to a minimum. That is a standard that Lewis meets.

    Secondly, Location is very important. If the magic is occuring in what Tolkien callsn the Primary Universe (that is, our world), then you had best be wary. If it occurs in a Secondary Universe (fictional world), then it is most likely acceptable. All magic, with the exception of the actual means of getting there, occurs in Narnia (and in each case, it is not the children's doing).

    Availability is basically a re-emphasis of the previous points. Magic, as a rule, should not be available to just anyone. In Lord of the Rings, mortals have no access to "magic" except through other items (rings, swords, etc.) that have been "enchanted" by those who have that ability naturally. So, no free human access.

    Origin is very important as well. If the origin of the "magic" is not of the being themselves (for instance, Tolkien's Elves possess that ability just like some humans possess the ability to sing or to write. For the Elves, it is Art, not Power). If it is not of the being, tread carefully - so long as it is not of any evil source, then it's probably acceptable.

    In each of these classes, Lewis passes the test. Now, a note should be made of Deep Magic and the Deeper Magic. These are not what we understand to be magic. Rather, they are "Laws" - ideas and statutes that govern the world, much like our scientific laws (gravity, etc.). They were Divinely placed (Emperor-Beyond-the-Sea) and affect everyone and cannot be "used" by anyone.

    Any further questions on the subject?

     

  • At 5:16 PM, February 12, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

     

  • At 5:17 PM, February 12, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    Does Aslan ever use magic? If so how does this fall into the paradigms you are speaking of?

     

  • At 9:31 PM, February 25, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    Aslan does not use magic at all. Actually, if you want to play fair, he is subject to it. The Deep Magic and the Deeper Magic play a vital role in His life and death and resurrection. He doesn't do any incantations, etc.

    He does release those who the Witch turned to stone but that is very Biblical (as the Scriptures say that the Christ came to set the captives free) and is of his own being, not something he learned...if you will, it's much like the healing power of Jesus.

     

  • At 12:15 AM, February 26, 2006, Blogger Soldier of ONE said…

    This is a very fascinating discussion and I agree with nearly everything said here. However, I do have one issue with this...

    Secondly, Location is very important. If the magic is occuring in what Tolkien callsn the Primary Universe (that is, our world), then you had best be wary. If it occurs in a Secondary Universe (fictional world), then it is most likely acceptable.

    I would contend that magic which takes place in any universe must be viewed with caution. I have no issues with LOTR or Narnia because they pass the other tests that you cited here (I hadn't heard of those before, but they make good sense).

    In any case, I believe that magic should be viewed with caution even in a fantasy world. Why? Because magic in this world is occultic and sinful. Creating an "alternate reality" in which magic (as we know it) is not sinful implies that God either does not exist in the fantasy world or that he is different (e.g. He allows magic). That is typical sin nature expressed; to get away from God and the feeling of accountability for our sin. We can't do it in this reality, so we try to create an alternate reality where we can. That's why it's important to check the other tests.

    Narnia passes the tests here. God is there if you know where to look. LOTR does make me a bit nervous though; there does not seem to be a clear God figure. LOTR is one of my absolute favorite book/movie series, but it still makes me nervous.

    Anyway, I would be highly suspicious of any literature that suggests that any act that is wrong in this world is ok in the fantasy world.

    Now, all this to say, don't accept magic just because it takes place in an alternate reality! :)

     

  • At 8:39 AM, February 26, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    I would contend that magic which takes place in any universe must be viewed with caution. I have no issues with LOTR or Narnia because they pass the other tests that you cited here (I hadn't heard of those before, but they make good sense).

    You're absolutely right here, Soldier (lol, that sounds cool). I think that all of these tests must be passed to be "safe" if you catch my meaning. One test is not enough - all of them is.

    Because magic in this world is occultic and sinful. Creating an "alternate reality" in which magic (as we know it) is not sinful implies that God either does not exist in the fantasy world or that he is different (e.g. He allows magic). That is typical sin nature expressed; to get away from God and the feeling of accountability for our sin. We can't do it in this reality, so we try to create an alternate reality where we can. That's why it's important to check the other tests.

    Again, you're absolutely right. I think the key to this is understanding the nature of the "magic" used. If it is truly magic, then there's going to be an issue. In Arda (Tolkien), it's not magic as we understand it, but a simple ability much like some humans have an ability to sing and it's particular to their being. If an angel came down and started striking people dead (as he did in the Assyrian siege of Jerusalem during the reign of King Hezekiah), and someone saw that, it would be perceived as humans to be magic or sorcery. To the angel, however, it's a simple expression of his abilities. Beings that are different from us are not bound by the same laws as us. It is much the same in Narnia.

    LOTR does make me a bit nervous though; there does not seem to be a clear God figure.

    Have you ever read the Silmarillion? From that, you could learn of Eru (in Quenya, "The One") who created Arda and the Powers, and the Elves, and the Men and gave life to the Dwarves. (Which is why they are all called Eruhini, Children of Eru). There is a lot more Biblical relation in The Silmarillion, though, so I'd check it out.

    Anyway, I would be highly suspicious of any literature that suggests that any act that is wrong in this world is ok in the fantasy world.

    Now, all this to say, don't accept magic just because it takes place in an alternate reality! :)

    Again, I absolutely agree. Great thoughts and thanks for sharing!

     

  • At 9:02 PM, February 26, 2006, Blogger Soldier of ONE said…

    I actually haven't read The Silmarillion. I've wanted to, but have never taken the time. It appears I'll have to do so. Anyways, that's good to know. :)

     

  • At 10:00 PM, February 26, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    Thanks guys...that touches on things that I've also been thinking about. Mind if I move on? What should Christians think about the pagan symbols in Narnia...the first thing Lucy meets in the Wardrobe is a faun.

     

  • At 9:09 PM, February 27, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    Good question, Jonathan (as usual). I think the key thing to distinguish here is WHAT is used. You'll note that Lewis does a rather interesting thing by including these "pagan" and mythological characters and symbols.

    Throughout the books, we see that there are numerous references to gods, goddesses, fauns, stags, etc. This, in part, can be explained by the fact that Lewis was an expert in Medieval and Renaissance literature. Anyone who reads much of the compositions of that time will find many of those elements as well. So we know that Lewis' familiarity with them was key.

    How he presents, them, however, seems to degrade their former uses and change them entirely. We see that these "gods" and "goddesses" are subject to Aslan's bidding. In reality, in Narnia, they are used in a mythic way to represent nature - much like the nymphs and the dryads. In the Primary Universe, we know that God is in control of every natural occurence and that the elements are subject to Him. Much the same in Narnia save they are embodied in forms.

    In a way, it is also a theological proposition - saying that there is nothing that can be the equal of God. All things are subject to Him and have their source in Him. That leads me to my next point about Creation and sub-Creation.

    Tolkien wrote extensively on the idea that there is only one Creator. That fact, he says, is demonstrated in man's creativity. What we create ultimately is done in imitation of our Father's work, an attempt to please Him (whether purposely or not). Notwithstanding, some are polluted and perverted but the original idea is pure as it comes of a pure God. Everything we make - be it a simple sentence or a whole universe - is a sub-creation of the whole. It exists within the Creation and it was made under the Creator. So, in truth, Narnia and Arda are every bit part of this Creation since, as the Teacher says, "there is nothing new under the sun."

    I've said all this to demonstrate that what was formerly pagan in the real world has been transformed and subjected to an Eternal and Holy Ruler who keeps everything in His will and is second to none.

     

  • At 1:13 PM, February 28, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    Thanks again, David. Let's talk about the issue of Allegory. Did Lewis intend for CON to be a Christian parallel or does it simply have Christian elements?

     

  • At 9:09 PM, February 28, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    Jonathan,

    Surprisingly, Lewis did not intend nor did he believe the Chronicles to be allegory. In a letter to a fifth grade class in Maryland (1954), he says:

    You are mistaken when you think that everything in the books ‘represents’ something in this world. Things do that in The Pilgrims Progress but I’m not writing in that way. I did not say to myself, ‘Let us represent Jesus as He really is in our world by a Lion in Narnia.’ I said ‘Let us suppose that there were a land like Narnia and that the Son of God as he became a Man in our world, became a Lion there, and then imagine what would happen.’ If you think about it, you will see that it is quite a different thing. So the answer to your first two questions is that Reepicheep and Nick-i-brick don’t, in that sense, represent anyone. But of course anyone in our world who devotes his whole life to seeking Heaven will be like R, and anyone who wants some worldly thing so badly that he is ready to use wicked means to get it will be likely to behave like N.

    Also, in a letter dated June 8, 1960, he states:

    Perhaps it comes to much the same thing as you thought, but not quite.
    1. The creation of Narnia is the Son of God creating a world (not specially our world).
    2. Jadis is plucking the apple is, like Adam’s sin, an act of disobedience, but it doesn’t fill the same place in her life as his plucking did in his. She was already fallen (very much so) before she ate it.
    3. The stone table is meant to remind one of Moses’ table.
    4. The Passion and Resurrection of Aslan are the Passion and Resurrection of Christ might be supposed to have had in that world – like those in our world but not exactly like.
    5. Edmund is like Judas a sneak and traitor. But unlike Judas he repents and is forgiven (as Judas no doubt wd. Have been if he’d repented).
    6. Yes. At the v. edge of the Narnian world Aslan begins to appear more like Christ as He is known in this world. Hence, the Lamb. Hence, the breakfast – like the end of St. John’s Gospel. Does not He say “You have been allowed to know me in this world (Narnia) so that you may know me better when you get back to your own”?
    7. And of course the Ape and Puzzle, just before the last Judgment (in the Last Battle) are like the coming of Antichrist before the end of our world.

    So, while there is a solid and obvious Biblical foundation and relationship, it is not allegorical. There is a Biblical message but Narnia is not the representation of the Gospel. Rather, it is the demonstration of a man whose life had been transformed by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

    (Many thanks to tabletalk for the quotes)

     

  • At 9:00 AM, March 01, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    Great, David! You nailed the issue very well. Let's finally discuss the new movie that, Lordwilling, will soon be released on DVD. Both you and I saw this new version. What is your take on how accurately it portrays Narnia?

     

  • At 10:50 PM, March 01, 2006, Blogger David Ketter said…

    Jonathan,

    As I posted in my review of the movie, I firmly belief that Walden Media, Director Adamson, and all other involved in the development of this movie did a fantastic job of staying true to the original story. As I said:

    Before Walden Media even obtained the options (e.g., permission) to make the Chronicles of Narnia movies, they assured the C.S. Lewis Estate that they would remain true to the original story. Douglas Gresham, C.S. Lewis' stepson and virtual head of the C.S. Lewis Estate was adamant on the point and believed that they would do what they promised. Next, Walden Media went on a search for a director. In the midst of the cutthroat industry, they found Andrew Adamson, the famed director of Shrek and Shrek 2, two totally computer-generated comedies. When approached him about the movie, Adamson made it clear that he would not do it if it wasn't true to the original story. According to Adamson, he had read it as a child and still retained a keen memory of the tale. After he accepted the job, there was the mandatory meeting with Douglas Gresham to confirm it all. Mr. Gresham agreed to it with one condition: that Adamson would have to play Puddleglum the Marshwiggle when they make The Silver Chair.

    That is only the start of their devotion to staying true to the story.

    For more, I'd encourage our readers to read the entire review (which is also available from NarniaWeb)

     

  • At 11:10 AM, March 02, 2006, Blogger Jonathan M said…

    Well that concludes our discussion. Thank you, David for your well-thought answers.

     

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